Psalm 11:3

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Archive for February, 2009

Radio Interview

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 20, 2009

I will be interviewed today concerning the release of the DVD warning the Nazarene denomination (among others) about the dangers of the Emergent church. on Southwest Radio Church out of Oklahoma City. Eric Barger will be doing the interview. We will also be discussing the state of Nazarene University’s around the country as well as local influences on Oklahoma City promoting Emergent.

Update-The radio interview took place on FEB 20 but was not live and they had 7 people to interview. Eric Barger will give me the heads up when the interview goes out and is completed.
And I will pass that on here.

Spoke to Eric Barger and the radio interview will be aired on Southwest Radio Church April 20,21,22 2009. Please go to Southwest Radio Church for exact airtimes.

I am also currently writting a new article titled “Is the Nazarene Denomination on the Road To Rome? More on this to come. I have made some amazing findings though.

Another Update-Spoke to Eric Barger today and the interview will be complete in about 3 weeks. Once it is complete I will pass along the exact air date.
Blessings
Tim Wirth

Posted in Alan Roxburgh, Allelon, Brian McLaren, Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf, Leonard Sweet, New spirituality, Rick Warren, Rob Bell | Leave a Comment »

The Holiness Movement is Dead

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 16, 2009

Found this article online and thought I would share it with you-
It may not yet be 100% true I know Gods people are seeking revival.
Its always a good thing to pray for revival.
The article is a sad state of facts though.
Peace
Tim

The Holiness Movement is Dead

A retrospective

the author reflects on the original address in the footnotes, ten years after the original address.

The following footnoted manuscript will appear as the anchor article in the forthcoming book Counterpoint: Dialogue with Drury on the Holiness Movement .

This document is the original address–click on the footnotes to see the retrospective.

The Holiness Movement is Dead[1]

Originally delivered as an address to the Presidential Breakfast of the Christian Holiness Association

I owe a lot to the holiness movement. In 1905 I believe it was, or 1906, my grandfather, an immigrant coal miner, came from England to the United States and settled in Pennsylvania. His wife, Emmaline saw at the Five and Dime store, a woman who seemed different. The lady asked my grandmother, “Would you like to come to a cottage prayer meeting?” She had attended the Church of England all her life but since coming to America, was not attending a church anywhere. She said, “Why, sure!”

And my grandmother, Emmaline Drury, got into a small cottage prayer meeting of the holiness movement. In it she found the Lord—she got “saved.” She didn’t even know what saved meant, but she got it.

She came home to my grandfather, Walter Drury and told him, “Walter, I got saved tonight.” My grandfather said, “Well, that’s fine Emmaline,” (but inside he said, “We’ll see.”) He always had come home from the mine and gone into the basement of that home in Elizabeth, Pennsylvania and taken his coal-dust clothes off. The very next day when he came home from the mine he walked up the basement steps, right into her kitchen, upstairs to the bedroom and took all his filthy, coal-black mining clothes off and plopped them on the bed. Emmaline followed him upstairs and without a word, cleaned it all up, cleaned up the bed, took everything outside and shook it out.[2]

He did this everyday for two weeks! She smiled and with a sweetness of spirit, never said a word, and cleaned up after him every day.

This was salvation folks, not sanctification! He was so attracted to her life that he went with her to the cottage prayer meeting. He too was saved—in a holiness meeting in Elizabeth, Pennsylvania.

So, I owe a lot to the holiness movement. My grandparents raised my father who became a holiness preacher, and now I follow in that path.

However, what I have to say today is not a collection of bright and cheery thoughts. It is this: We need to admit to each other that the holiness movement is dead. We have never had a funeral. And we still have the body upstairs in bed.[3] In fact, we still keep it dressed up and still even talk about the movement as if it were alive. But the holiness movement—as a movement—is dead. Yes, I recognize that there are many wonderful holiness people around. And people are still getting entirely sanctified here and there. But as a movement, I think we need to admit we are dead. The sooner we admit it, the better off we’ll be.[4]

We have a holiness heritage. We have holiness denominations. We have holiness organizations. We have holiness doctrines. We even have holiness colleges, but we no longer have a holiness movement. [5]

I, for one, lament the death of the holiness movement. But pretending we are alive as a movement will not make it so. In fact, it may be the greatest barrier to the emergence of a new holiness movement.

What happened to the holiness movement? How did the movement die? Who killed it? Was it a slow death, or did we die suddenly? Was it murder? Suicide? Why did the movement die? What caused it’s death? I wish to suggest eight factors, which contributed to the death of the holiness movement.

1. We wanted to be respectable.

Holiness people got tired of being different and looked on as “holy rollers.” Somewhere along the line we decided we didn’t want to be weird. We no longer wanted to be thought of as a “sect” or a fringe group. Instead, we wanted to be accepted as normal, regular Christians. We shuddered at the thought of being a “peculiar people.” We determined to fit in.

Pastors in holiness churches now tell visiting speakers, “My people here are quality people.” What they mean by “quality people” is that their church is populated with sharp, up-scale, white-collar professionals. “Quality people.” Respectable people. And we have become respectable. There is not a whole lot of difference now. Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans move into our churches from their former denominations with ease. They don’t see that much difference, because there isn’t much difference. We have succeeded in becoming average Christians.

But in our quest for respectability, we lost something. We lost our willingness to be “different.” Not just different from the world—but different from average Christianity. We left the fringe. We became respectable. And somewhere along the line, we lost the movement. It is hard to be a holiness movement when we don’t want to be different than the average Christian. [6]

2. We have plunged into the evangelical mainstream.

Over time we quit calling ourselves “holiness people” or “holiness churches” or “holiness colleges” or “holiness denominations,” (except, of course, to each other). We began to introduce ourselves as “Evangelicals.” We started becoming more at home with NAE than CHA. Local churches repositioned themselves as “evangelical” in their communities. We built respectable churches on busy highways. We quit painting “Holiness unto the Lord” on the front wall. And gradually were assimilated into the evangelical mainstream. [7]

All this, of course, was quite easy for us. Mainstream evangelical media kings like James Dobson, Charles Colson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, Robert Schuller and Bill Hybels melted away our differences.[8] Few holiness kingpins are to be found. And even those who have a holiness background are not known as holiness leaders, so much as evangelical leaders. The influencers of our pastors are evangelicals, not holiness leaders. Gradually the theology among our people became the same generic evangelical soup served at any other evangelical church. “Holiness people” became “evangelical people.” It’s hard to have a holiness movement when our people are really a part of the evangelical movement, not the holiness movement.

3. We failed to convince the younger generation.

We must admit to each other that we have generally failed to convince the generation in their 40s and 30s of the importance of entire sanctification. A few preach it regularly. But many preach it only occasionally, and even then with little urgency or passion. It is not the “primary issue” for boomer and buster preachers. At best, holiness is preached as an attractive accessory, not as an essential necessity. This generation (my own) made it through the ordination hoops, then put holiness on the back burner.

Many grass-roots people like to blame the educational institutions for this, of course. But all of us must shoulder the blame. We need to face the music. Many holiness pastors have opted for the much more appealing notion of optional or progressive sanctification than for such a notion as “instantaneous,” and/or “entire” sanctification. It’s hard to be a holiness movement when many of the aggressive boomer and buster pastors do not preach holiness, and if they do, it is with little passion or insistence.[9]

4. We quit making holiness the main issue.

In the movement stage “the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.” When the holiness movement was a movement, holiness was the main thing. Holiness was all ten of the top ten priorities. Everything else was brought into line behind holiness.

Other movements illustrate this. Consider the anti-abortion movement. There is little room for anything else. Fighting abortion is the main thing. All actions are brought under this issue. All judgments of people and organizations are made through the glasses of the “main thing.” Or consider the church-growth movement. Here, growth is the main thing. Will it help us grow? Will it hinder growth? These are the questions when a movement is a movement. The dominating priority relegates all other matters to secondary priorities. This is one of the excesses of a movement. The term “balanced movement” is an oxymoron. Movements are radical by nature. [10]

There aren’t a lot of excesses in the holiness movement today. We’re pretty safe. Holiness is our stated belief. But in most places we don’t make it the main thing. Preachers in the old holiness movement used to say, “Preach holiness and everything else will take care of itself.” Who says this today? Today’s trend is uplifting, cheery, help-for-Monday sermons, not holiness sermons. Where holiness is not the main thing there will be no holiness movement. Just as wherever abortion is not the main thing, there will be no anti-abortion movement. It’s hard to have a holiness movement when holiness is no longer the main thing.

5. We lost the lay people.

A real movement is not made up of professionals but is lay-dominated. While holiness preachers and writers ignited and led the laymen in the old holiness movement, the laymen provided the real dynamic. But over the years, gatherings of the holiness movement like CHA have become fellowships of ministers on expense accounts, not a crowd of laymen with a personal passion for holiness. In fact, one wonders how many meetings we would have if all those who attended were paying their own way.

We no longer have a force of lay foot soldiers. We have generals without armies. Strategy, but no soldiers. It’s hard to have a holiness movement without the laymen. [11]

6. We over-reacted against the abuses of the past.

I am not yearning for the past. I believe the holiness movement, in many cases, had an abusive past. But in trying to correct these abuses, we overreacted.

Some (perhaps most) in the old holiness movement were legalistic and judgmental. So we became behavioral libertarians.

Some were so ingrown as to never touch the world. So we became assimilated into the world and seldom touched God.

Some were radically emotional, running the aisles, shouting, and “getting blessed.” So we became orderly and respectable, and we labeled all such emotion as “leaning charismatic.”

Some were judgmental and rejecting of anyone who got divorced or had marriage problems. We became so accepting of divorce that it is quickly becoming a non-issue for all but the clergy—and even that is eroding.

They preached a fearsome, vengeful God. Now we have a soft, easygoing Mister Rogers in the sky, “who loves you just the way you are.”

While the abuses of the old holiness movement were glaring (and perhaps responsible in part for our own overreaction), the abuses of our own generation have been no better. We have led many holiness folk far from essential holiness doctrine and experience. We now have holiness theologians and speakers (like myself) who are better at articulating what holiness is not, than what it is. It’s hard to have a holiness movement when much of what we are is merely a reaction against who we were. [12]

7. We adopted church-growth thinking without theological thinking.

We discovered that in America, numerical success is the doorway to respect. We wanted to be accepted into the mainstream and we found that church growth gave us the chance. When the church-growth movement first came along, holiness people were wary. We were nervous about too much accommodation to the world in order to win the world. But evangelism has always been a twin passion with holiness. So, many holiness churches—at least the growing ones—suppressed their natural reticence and adopted church-growth thinking in a wholesale way. Pastors became CEOs. Ministers became managers. Shepherds promoted themselves to ranchers. Sermons became talks. Sinners were renamed “seekers.” “Twelve steps” became the new way to get deliverance, instead of at the altar. Growth itself became the great tie-breaking issue. Everything else was made to serve growth.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with church growth. And if people are getting saved, there should be church growth. But is there anyone who would argue that the church-growth movement is in any sense a holiness movement? In fact, much of the movement is quite openly anti-holiness, instructing us that “perfecting the saints” is an unfinishable task which should be given secondary importance to the primary task of initial disciple-making. Most of us in the holiness movement (myself included) joined the church-growth movement with great gusto. And with little theological thought. (I might add that this transfer of loyalties from the holiness movement to the church-growth movement was encouraged by most holiness denominational leaders like myself. And we leaders restructured all the denominational reward and affirmation systems to encourage only two things: growth and “bigness.”) And we got what we rewarded—at least for awhile.

Holiness pastors became enthusiastic foot soldiers in the expanding church-growth movement—which was indeed a movement. They read church-growth books, attended church-growth conferences, subscribed to church-growth magazines, and networked with other like-minded church-growth pastors. This is the stuff of a “movement.” These holiness pastors had simply switched movements. They traded in the rusting, old holiness movement for a bright, shiny new church-growth movement. [13]

(As a side point, one wonders, now that the church-growth movement is crumbling[14], where these pastors will go next. Presumably, the church-growth movement will continue to produce publications, hold conferences and grant “D. Min” degrees in church growth for many years. And I suppose that sooner or later someone in that movement will speak to a gathering of church-growth thinkers and pronounce the movement dead.

Many holiness pastors just switched movements. They became members of a bigger, stronger, more popular and better financed movement. Can anyone deny this? In many holiness churches, growth is king, not holiness. Pastor and people are in the church-growth movement. And because of the radical nature of a true movement, it is difficult to ride two horses at once. So we ride the church-growth horse and have turned the holiness horse out to pasture. It’s hard to have a holiness movement when our hearts have already been given away to another lover . . . another movement . . . the church-growth movement.

8. We did not notice when the battle line moved.

Many of us believe we are in danger of losing the doctrine and experience of “second-blessing holiness”—an experience through the Holy Ghost which cleanses the heart of its inclination to rebel and enables the believer to live above intentional sin, producing a life in obedience to the known will of God.

We believe that we should stand our ground for the holiness message. That holiness is the “front line” of battle, if we use military terms. But while we have been meeting and talking to each other about holiness, and while we have been discussing doctrine in the Wesleyan Theological Society, and while we have been having our denominational conventions where we show each other our self-congratulatory videos, the battle line moved on us.

Many of our people do not need to be sanctified—they need to be saved! The doctrine at risk in many holiness churches is not entire sanctification but “transformational conversion.” We may need to stand at Luther’s side awhile before we can rejoin Wesley.[15]

Few will admit it knowingly, but many of our churches have replaced “transformational conversion” with a softer, user-friendlier style of building the local church. “Membership assimilation” or “assimilation evangelism” or “faith development” models seem so much more attractive today than the old sin-repentance-conversion-restitution models of the past. The notion that people can repent of their sins in a single moment and be transformed instantaneously into new creatures with a radically changed lives, is increasingly at risk, even in holiness churches. Modernity teaches us that nothing can be done in less than twelve steps!

These popular assimilation models turn the gospel into something else. It is more sociology than theology. People ooze into churches without ever becoming saved. Repentance is replaced by “accepting Christ.” Christ is “added on” to achieve a balanced life. Sinner is traded in for “seeker,” absolutes for options, and theology for therapy.

And people do come into the church. And growth—even great growth—results from these “nonconversion” conversion models of church growth. But it is hard to have a holiness movement dedicated to the possibility of “instantaneous sanctification,” when many folk do not even have an experience of “instantaneous salvation.” It’s hard to have a holiness movement when many of our own church members are not even saved, let alone sanctified.

My sense is that we are dead, as a movement. And the sooner we admit it, the better off we’ll be.[16] While the doctrine and experience of holiness still has more life than the movement, my sense is that these too will follow the movement in death. And, if I am correct—even half-correct—holiness people are at a critical point in their history.

But here is the irony in all this: There has seldom been a time when the church more desperately needs the holiness message. Spiritual shallowness is rampant. Sin among believers is commonplace. Christians boldly advertise on their bumper stickers, “I’m not perfect—just forgiven.” What was once an eroding morality in the world is now an eroding morality in the church. People like Peggy Campolo call themselves “evangelical,” yet they “enthusiastically endorse . . . monogamous, loving, intimate relationships between people of the same sex.” Evangelical?

The church watched Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith succeed in becoming crossover artists . . . and then followed them with our crossover worship services.[17] We were delighted that our music, support groups and encouraging talks were popular with the world. We started to fit in. The world liked us! Christians are less and less different than their unsaved neighbors. They are out for the same thing. They lie, cheat and get divorced just like their unsaved neighbors. The old riddle was prophetic: What’s the difference between the church and the world? Answer: About ten years. Perhaps even less.

Evangelicals have accommodated to divorce. “Worldliness” is seldom mentioned, and even then only in jest. Evangelicals now attend the same movies as the world does. They rent the same videos. They watch the same TV shows. Evangelicals watch things on television that they would have called “pornography” twenty years ago. Christian families are falling apart. Even sets of board members get divorced and marry each others’ spouses—all while staying on the board! And evangelical churches are filling up with people who have never had a genuine experience of transformational conversion. They oozed in through the sociological assimilation process.

Isn’t it ironic, that just as the holiness movement enters its waning years, the church at large is in its greatest need for a holiness movement. What does God want? I believe He wants a holiness movement. A new holiness movement.

- A movement which will preach boldly that God is holy and does not accept sin.
- A movement which will have the integrity to tell some Christians they need to get saved.
- A movement which will preach a second work of grace which God does in the life of a believer to cleanse and empower him or her, enabling an obedient life of devotion to God.
- A movement which will call people to abandon worldliness even at the risk of losing some people to the positive, upbeat, cheery service offered down the street.
- A movement which will adopt an external mission—to recruit, persuade and mobilize other evangelicals as aggressively as the church-growth movement or the anti-abortion movements have done—to recruit them to holiness.
This is the holiness movement today’s church so desperately needs. A new holiness movement.[18]

So I am not essentially gloomy in my outlook. True, for the holiness movement of the past decade or two, I am gloomy. But for the new holiness movement of the next decade or two, I am quite optimistic. I believe we will see it! God will bring it!

The disturbing question is this: Will the old holiness movement be in the new holiness movement? Or will God go outside of our circle to raise up someone else to lead the new movement?

I think it would be wonderful if God would raise up a new holiness movement within the holiness movement. Maybe we will admit that the holiness movement is dead. And we will organize as a “remnant” within the holiness movement. We will become more like an underground movement than an official movement. A holiness movement within the holiness movement. Perhaps we could become the “holiness good news” movement within the holiness denominations. We could be it. But I fear it will not be. God is often forced to use new wineskins to carry His new wine. We may care more for our old wineskins—camp meeting, revival meetings, holiness conventions and the like—than we care for the new wine.

However, I may be totally wrong in my proposition. Maybe God will raise up the old holiness movement to be the new one. Perhaps I have painted too bleak a picture. Perhaps I am too much like one of the mourners at the funeral of Jairus’ daughter . . . I lament her obvious death. She’s pale. She is dead. She’s gone. But Jesus is standing nearby. And He will say, “She is not dead, but asleep.” I will laugh! But He will take our movement by the hand . . . and speak to us: “My child, GET UP!” And a new holiness movement will arise out of the old one.[19]

Whatever He does, by birth, renewal or resurrection, when the new holiness movement comes along . . . I want to be in that number! [20]

Original address by Keith Drury, 1995. Retrospective footnotes added almost ten years later in late 2004

[1] The opportunity to deliver this address at the CHA Presidential Luncheon came from Dr. O. D. Emery. I am not sure if he was pleased or disappointed by the address and its effects. I’m not sure I am either. Words once given cannot be recalled and one never escapes secondary reinterpretation by others. Did the address help or hinder the promotion of holiness across the lands? I am not sure. If the passion for promoting holiness had leaked out of the movement, and the movement (as a movement) had indeed died or was dying, then this address was an awakening call and I have no regrets delivering it. However, not a few enemies of the holiness message (as a second work of grace) gleefully greeted the obituary of the movement and used it to speed along the demise of the doctrine and experience, not just the movement. (9/13/2004)
[2] This behavior of my grandfather was of course reprehensible. One Methodist church leader formerly form the holiness movement delivered a tirade to me on this point arguing that such behavior was typical of the holiness movement males. My telling the story here was intended to show how an unregenerate male could act. Once converted (and later sanctified) my Grandfather Walter Drury was considered to be a living example of holiness in Elizabeth Pennsylvania and especially at Bentleyville Camp Meeting.
[3] This is a reference to Psychotic motel owner Norman Bates who was so attached to his mother he kept her corpse dressed up in an upstairs room sitting in a rocking chair and chatted with her regularly pretending she was alive. It is a reference to what I believed at the time: the holiness movement was pretending to be a movement when the movement part of our heritage was already a corpse. More directly I may have been reminding those at CHA that the association might meet annually to “speak with the corpse” but the corpse was long dead and pretending life did not make it so. At the time I hoped that shocking the association into facing the corpse in front of it might bring about a new aggressive strategy of promoting holiness and maybe even a renewed identity as a movement. Whatever effects of the address, a significant renewed “movement mentality” has not emerged in my opinion.
[4] In an earlier draft of the address I had even said that we were like the Medieval Catholics who bring out their shrine of Mary once a year on a festival day and parade it through the streets—this was too harsh of an estimate of CHA or the Wesleyan Theological Society. At least I thought so then.
[5] This point of my address was largely ignored, especially by some Nazarene theologians. This paragraph is the essence of my argument—that the movement was dead though the doctrine remained. I was not addressing the death of the holiness message or doctrine but the movement (and experience). That is, I believed the movement—as a movement—was dead and the experience was even fading but that the doctrine still continued The noisy response form some quarters claiming the “holiness doctrine is alive and well” did not rebut my original point but dodged it. Doctrine is the last to go. I believed at the time (and still do) that a movement fades first, then the experience, and finally the doctrine. Doctrine usually outlasts the death of the movement and experience by decades. Face it, the United Methodist church’s statement on Christian perfection is a great statement to this day. I heard noisy claims of the robust doctrines of sanctification still thriving in the various denominations of the holiness movement. “That don’t impress me much.” I was arguing that the movement and experience of a second definite work of grace known as “Entire Sanctification” was gone for all practical purposes, though the doctrine-on-paper continued on the books.

[6] I have taken a beating from a number of my critics at this point. They have argued that being different was merely a strange sociological phenomenon of the movement and not related to theology. They argued that holiness churches need not be different or strange when compared with Baptists, Presbyterians or any other denomination. That the difference should be in doctrine more than lifestyle. They thus dismissed this point as sociology not theology. Which is precisely what I was doing—practicing sociology not theology. My entire paper has scant reference to theology. (Others have explored this aspect of the demise far better than I) . My paper was essentially proclaiming the death of the holiness movement. Thus it was indeed more sociological than theological. However they are not totally unrelated. I have a strong hunch that the movement may and the message are intertwined. That is, we are yet to discover the extent to which the holiness message (theology) will be maintained without the movement (sociology).
[7] While my paper addressed the movement sociologically this is a good point at which to cite recent doctrinal statements, mission statements and “strategic plans” produced by several of the former holiness denominations that are clearly “evangelical” and abandon any attempt to self-identify as holiness or even Wesleyan. While the self-labeling of denominations and educational institutions does not a doctrine make, it is indicative of the shifts in the decade since this address was first given. To identify the Free Methodists Nazarenes, or Wesleyans as an “evangelical denomination” would raise few eyebrows today. The deed is done, the labels switched.

[8] The situation is unchanged in the intervening decade since this address. The names of the evangelical influencers change as past leaders fade away and new evangelical leaders emerge, but our influencers are exclusively “evangelicals.” We switched movements, from the smaller more specific one to the larger more generic movement.
[9] Perhaps I erred in placing too much blame on my own generation—the “Boomers.” In this section I was stepping outside of my own generation and speaking to the generations above us. That is they (the older generations) had failed to convince us(the boomers) of the holiness message. I am convinced that the holiness movement was “lost” when the boomers took over. We boomers may be to blame for not taking it up. But it is the preceding generations that are to blame for failing to pass it on. As for boomers I tend to be a serious critic of our contribution to the church. While I believe the boomers have contributed much to the growth and professionalism of the church we have contributed little to its spiritual quality. The church we inherited may have needed reform, but the one we bequeath need even greater reform. However, while the boomers may have “dropped the holiness ball” the blame still falls to the previous generations who so hopelessly fumbled the handoff.
[10] This radical nature of movements may be a factor in the holiness movement’s demise. With the rise of a better educated ministry and a laity populated mostly with transfers from other churches, many formerly holiness churches sought to be “balanced” and “sensible.” While I personally greeted this trend with gladness I do admit that the dulled the movement and hastened to route to blend in to the generic evangelical soup du jour.
[11] I now wish I had developed this point further. I have a hunch it is far more important than it seems here. My grandfather whom I mentioned in the beginning story—the coal miner who tested his newly converted wife—left his books in the family and they eventually came to me. This man’s library included nearly a hundred holiness books. These books were not just testimonies and sermons but serious theological books as well. He was a simple coal miner but clearly he was what we’d call today a member of the “educated laity.” Lay people in the last twenty years still buy books. (at least the women do, according to the publisher’s research) but it is a rare lay person today that amasses a serious collection of works on holiness. I am not yet aware of any serious work investigating the connection between the laity and holiness, but I suspect it is more than I made of it in this address. Perhaps I lay too much blame on denominational leaders and the ministers and have let the laity off the hook here.
[12] I was attempting here to allow for an abusive legalistic past while pointing out that we had ridden the pendulum too far in reaction. I now teach an emerging generation of more than 400 ministerial students here at Indiana Wesleyan University and see that “what comes around goes around.” These younger ministerial students are fearsomely gifted at seeing the glaring errors of the boomer generations and they intend to correct them. Will they yearn for the miraculous purifying work from God we called “entire sanctification?” We are yet to see. While they see excesses of then boomer generations, they are at the same time hopelessly trapped in many of the boomer anti-miraculous style of thinking. Except the Pentecostal students, that is.
[13] A decade of reflection since this address has convinced me more than ever that if I had to pick a single executioner of the holiness movement it would be the church growth movement. The way it happened provided a choice to most churches—holiness or growth. Theoretically and historically this is a false choice. You should be able to be a church growth person and a holiness person. But in the 1980s, the way it functioned, many churches saw only two options: be a small-but-pure backwards declining holiness church, or become a large, inclusive, evangelistic growing church. Most pastors, and almost all district superintendents and denominational officials chose the church growth option.
[14] While this address is best known as discussing the death of the holiness movement perhaps the most shocking statement here was this one pronouncing the demise of the church growth movement when it was at its zenith of power. Ironically many holiness people abandoned a movement measured in centuries to join one that did not survive two decades!
[15] Ten years later I realize that this claim (which was largely ignored in later analysis) should have been the headline of my address. Instantaneous sanctification is not the primary matter before us now—it is instantaneous conversion. Year after year in my surveys of youth from our “holiness-now-evangelical” churches I discover that an instantaneous conversion experience is increasingly becoming the minority experience. Some are still saved in a datable moment, but an increasing number claim a series of experiences in their “faith journey” and more than half believe that “there never was a day in my life when I would have gone to hell.” This faith journey model has major influence on approaches to evangelism of course, but suffice it to say here that I was not aware at the time of how important this claim was, and that the discussions of a decade later would not be about instantaneous versus progressive sanctification at all, but about instantaneous versus progressive conversion. I am serious however about the “battle line.” How can those convinced that God can in an instant purify the heart of a believer get that message across to someone who has experienced no crisis of conversion or even is able to testify to any deliverance in their life to date that occurred in a moment. Yes, they people have been delivered—but not in a moment, but only after a long period of gradual growth and increasing victory and diminishing defeat. Could it be that while the remnants of the holiness movement is fighting a rear guard action trying to defend instantaneous sanctification, the progressive-conversion generals are taking the field. Can a crisis sanctification survive when a crisis conversion disappears?

[16] I continue to believe that confessing our movement’s death was the right thing to do. Though a host of in-house denominational theologians rushed to claim how healthy the movement really was, the subsequent ten years have shown that the movement was indeed dead as we have known it. Was it wise to pronounce it dead? I still believe so, though if it was not in fact dead, the address may have hastened to make it so. One of my own regrets is how the address was “used” by people with their own agendas. On one end folk used the address to show that holiness was indeed dead in the so-called “mainline holiness churches” and the holiness people still in those churches should come out and join the true holiness people in the independent or separated churches. On the other end were some denominational officials (and many pastors of larger churches) who gleefully used the address to usher in a new post-holiness era in the denomination. However I have come to accept the fact that when you write or speak people will use your remarks for their own purposes. In these matters I trust God as the final arbiter and judge as to weather the address helped or hindered His will for the church.
[17] At the time I did not see how the dying church growth movement would be temporarily replaced by PromiseKeepers but only for a short time. The next real movement would be the worship movement and the church’s attention would largely abandon any interest in discipleship, spiritual transformation, the spiritual disciplines, Christian Education or life change as we became absorbed in praise as if praise itself would sanctify the church causing the chains of sin to fall away. As I write this retrospective almost five years after the turn of the millennium I see the worship movement losing steam like these other movements did. What will sweep in next? Could it be a new holiness movement in some sort of disguise? We hope so, but cannot say. Do our churches need more than ever holy people? By all means! While we may be more inclusive and less legalistic than we were ten years ago,, but is there anyone who claims the church today has a more holy people? We await God’s next move, and hope it raises the level of holy living of His people.

[18] My call for “a new holiness movement” turned out to be nothing more than an empty call. The movement’s remains spent the next decade quibbling over their life or death, CHA gradually sunk into oblivion, the holiness denominations drifted into becoming mainline evangelicals, and nobody rose to lead the re-invention of the holiness movement. The so-called “holiness splinter groups” took temporary delight in feeling like they were a loyal remnant, but most failed to do much beyond the walls of their own churches. Certainly few are effective at convincing the larger evangelical church of the message John Wesley held so dear. So we wait. Unless movements are largely created by men and women and not God, then we must turn to God to see how he will raise up the next holiness movement. How long will He wait?
[19] In a basically pessimistic analysis of how the movement died I offered two glimpses of hope. First, that God might raise up a new movement outside the holiness movement. Second, that God might resurrect the holiness movement itself and bring a new movement though it. I still hope for both but have more hope for the first than the second.
[20] Though I knew I was “bearding the Lion” in this original address I was not prepared for the earthquake of a response to it. The proclamation that the “emperor had no clothes” was not taken lightly by many. Most denominational officials condemned the address as excessive and missing the point that “we still have a holiness doctrine even though we’ve escaped the legalism of the movement.” Others silent while rejoicing in private thinking that this might be a means of shutting down CHA, something they had south for years. Scholars responded seriously expanding the points to include theological matters beyond my sociological analysis of “why the patient died.” Successful large church pastors simply grinned that the address finally stated the obvious—the movement was gone and these pastors often had no regrets. Though I closed with some sense of hope the address was indeed mostly pessimistic. In a later address at Indiana Wesleyan University titled “Hope for the Holiness movement” I expanded what I saw as signs that could turn into a new movement I am mostly disappointed with the later history. PromiseKeepers popularized the best holiness chorus of the recent decades (Purify my heart) the movement staggered and drifted into becoming just another para-church organization. Young people continue to have a heart for holiness, but are hard to convince there is a “shorter way.” Yet I am hopeful today. It isn’t our problem, but God’s. Only God can raise a movement like this again, and thus praying that He will is the best strategy of hope. I care little for the “remnant mindset” of some remaining holiness people. Why? Because I believe God’s great concern is for the shallowness and sinfulness of his entire church—more than a billion of them around the world. I suspect of God is right now raising up another holiness movement it will not be one that “preserves the message” in a remnant mindset, but will be an aggressive, militant movement intent on spreading the message across every land. The next holiness movement will not try to build their own church or denomination so much as infect every church so that the all of God’s people will become a holy people. To this day I look forward.

Posted in Alan Roxburgh, Allelon, Brian McLaren, Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf, Leonard Sweet, New spirituality, Rick Warren, Rob Bell | Leave a Comment »

Jon Middendorf,Wired Parish, and Oke First Church of the Nazarene

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 16, 2009

I came under fire sometime ago because we called out Jon Middendorf (son of The Nazarene General Superintendent Jesse Middendorf ) in a article by Mike Oppenheimer “The Mindset of Mockers in the Last Days”.
I came under fire by those who called Jon orthodox in his Christianity.
Well I listened to Jon again on Greg Hortons wired parish site again and I still agree with Mikes article.
Now please go and decide for yourselves.
Of course Jon is free to be friends and fellowship with whoever he wants to.
Of course the scripture teaches differently.

Here is the wired parish link go listen to the podcast for yourselves.

http://wiredparish.com/hosts.php?hid=51

The two podcasts are “The Lenses of scripture” and “Jon-cast continues”.

Here is also a link to Jons church which I noticed had no statement of faith or what they believe.
http://www.okcfirstnaz.org/engine/emw.exe/*qshome=home&st=798&trec=2

Rather they provided a link to the Nazarene church website.
Is that what they believe?
Who knows.
I know this they have a pastor for just about everything.
Also check out the Emergent Kaleo community link.
Check it all out and judge for yourselves.
Is this the direction the Nazarene church is headed?
Only time will tell.
Comments of course all closed here since this is no longer a interactive blog.
Peace
Tim

Posted in Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf | Leave a Comment »

Article on Bible Translations

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 14, 2009

The article featured will be by Pastor Gary Gilley but I wanted to let everyone know where I stand on this issue as well.
The which version is best bible discussion can get very heated very quickly.
I use a King James Bible. Always have probably always will.
I also use a New King James Bible which I like as well.
Here is part of the problem as I see it.
The King James Bible has been good to go for around 400 years or so.
I can see why we perhaps wanted to change the language a bit to make it more readable.
Good point but I also don’t buy the excuse that you cant (or our kids) understand the King James Bible.
Its very readable and why are we constantly lowering the bar with our children instead of raising it?
For instance if your kids are required to read classic literature such as “Tale of Two Cities” by Charles Dickens do you think they will be able to find a newer version that’s easier to read?
Of course not.
So we really need to get over the thee and thou conflict that is often bought up when reading Gods word in the King James Bible.
I am also not a King James Bible only person.

We really need to realize that Erasmus who wrote the Textus Receptus was a Dutch Humanist as well as a Roman Catholic priest until the day he died. He also was in a hurry when he wrote the Textus Receptus using a limited amount of manuscripts because he had a deadline.
So I do not buy into a Catholic conspiracy with the Westcott Hort text since Erasmus lived and died a Roman Catholic priest. Wescott and Hort were liberals but they were not Roman Catholic.
The facts about Erasmus are there and part of history now.
That also doesn’t mean I don’t think there is a problem noticing that the King James is good for 400 years or so and then a couple different translations come up which is fine.

Now we have around 50 different translations of the Bible in English and I can assure you that our English language has not changer that much to require so many translations.

That’s part of the problem why so many translations in such a short time?
And there are some really bad ones out there.
The Message Bible which is used often ( seems to be Rick Warrens fave) is a poor new age paraphrase Bible.
Its what Eugene Peterson thinks the Bible says.
Then go do some research on Eugene Peterson.
I avoid The Message like the plague and I cringe when I hear people quote it.
And now we have the Green Bible which focuses more on creation.
What????
Can you say paganism.
On the other side of the coin I think Gail Riplingers book (which I own) “New Age Bible Versions” is very poorly written full of misquotes, bad research and generally some very weird conspiracy theory.
I have read and watched hours of Ms Riplingers debates (back when she debated) and read a lot of her counter arguments against guys like James White.
I find her attitude and fruit to be very unscriptural and un Christlike.
Not that our enemy satan is not trying to tear down Gods Word and go back to his original ploy “Did God really say”‘?
You will find the enemy very alive and well within the Emergent Church and much of their teachings.
Anyway that’s my two cents and I’m not going to part fellowship with someone who uses a NIV even though I personally would not use a NIV because I don’t think its as good as a King James Bible.

Comments are closed on this blog now so if you have a beef feel free to email me.

Here is Gary’s article part One and Two.
Its full of fine and balanced solid research information. And then we will be moving back to more topics of the Emergent Church-Thanks Tim

The Bible Translation Debate – Part 1
(December 1996 – Volume 2, Issue 14)

There are many Christians who are confused over the plethora of Bible translations that are available today, especially to the English reader. A visit to any well-stocked Christian bookstore would result in discovery of translations such as: the King James Version, the New King James Version, the Revised Version, the Revised Standard Version, the Jerusalem Bible, the American Standard Bible, the New American Standard Bible, the Geneva Bible, the New International Version. In addition one would run across several paraphrases such as the Living Bible, the Phillips translation, and recently released, the Message. If all of this is not overwhelming enough, we find that these translations come packaged in wide variety of “reference Bibles.” Reference (or study Bibles) are not translations as such, but rather Bibles that incorporate certain footnotes and study aids along with whatever translations chosen. Some of the more popular include, the Life Application Bible, the International Inductive Study Bible, Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible, The Scofield and the Ryrie Study Bible. In recent days a new study Bible has appeared for almost every niche in the church. There is the Full Life Study Bible and the Spirit-filled Life Bible for Charismatics; the Catholic Study Bible for Catholics; The Children’s Ministry Resource Bible for children workers; African Heritage Study Bible for American Blacks; The Experiencing God Study Bible for the mystical; The Woman’s Study Bible for women; the Overcomers Bible for those involved in 12-step programs; the New Geneva Study Bible for the Reformed; The Student Bible for the student; and of course, Ryrie and Scofield for the dispensationalist. Unfortunately, this is only a sampling of offerings. It is enough to confuse veteran believers, pity the poor new convert.
By God’s grace, however, let’s say you have made your selection and head to town to make your purchase. As you enter the bookstore you are suddenly sidetracked again as your eyes behold a copy of Gail Riplinger’s book, New Age Bible Versions. To your grave astonishment you find that Riplinger has denounced the very Bible you had intended to buy as corrupt, and perhaps, even of the devil. As a matter of fact, all translations, except the 1611 KJV are part of a New Age conspiracy to usher in a one-world religion by destroying God’s Word, according to Riplinger (It might be added at this point that Riplinger’s work has been largely discredited even by those who agree with her basic position). At this point, you collapse on the floor, crawl to the nearest Barnes and Nobles and purchase a cheap novel. It is just too difficult to read the Bible.

STARTING OVER

Maybe it would be best to start over with a fresh understanding of Bible translation. The Bible obviously did not come to us in its present form. Rather, as God inspired its human authors His words were written down in scrolls. These original manuscripts (or autographs as they are sometimes called) contained no errors, presenting perfectly the Word of God. However, there are no known originals left. What we possess today are thousands of copies of the original manuscripts (this includes fragments, which in some cases may contain only a verse or two). The problem is that while the manuscripts we study today agree to an incredible extent there do exist differences. It is comforting to note, however, that scholars estimate that the text we have before us is between 98 and 99.9% pure — exactly as originally written. Only about 50 readings of any significance is in doubt, and none of these affect any basic doctrine. So we can have complete confidence in our text.

As the church became more established, certain definable New Testament manuscript traditions tended to become the standards within more or less defined areas. These became known as “text-types” and there were four of them:

The Byzantine text: Preserved by the Byzantine Empire, there are far more manuscripts of this tradition than in the other three combined, but most of them are of relatively late date.

The Western text: Sprang from fairly undisciplined scribal activity, and therefore, considered the most unreliable of the “text-types.”

The Alexandrian text: Prepared by trained scribes, most likely in Alexandria and its regions. This text has excellent credentials.

The Caesarean text: Probably originated in Egypt and was a mixture of the Western and Alexandrian texts.

The Textus Receptus and/or the Westcott and Hort

The problem facing the scholar is deciding which of the texts-types are the most accurate, and then choosing which of the manuscripts within the text-types are the best. Some of the criteria used in making such decisions are: 1) the age of the document. Usually the older the manuscript the more authoritative it is. 2) the length of the reading. The shorter the reading of a given passage the more preferable it is since it has been proven that later scribes, at least, tended to add bits rather than remove them. 3) the difficulty of the reading. The more difficult the reading the more comfortable we are with it since, once again, the scribes were more likely to amend a difficult reading than an easy one. Having said all of this, however, not all scholars agree on the reliability of the texts-types. Among conservative Christians there has developed a major disagreement between two schools of thought:

The Textus Receptus:

In 1516 the Roman Catholic/humanist Greek scholar Erasmus gathered together about six Byzantine manuscripts (none of which contained the entire NT and none of which was written before the twelfth century) and published a Greek NT. He was persuaded to do so by a printer who desired to get a Greek text to market before a competitive version, at that moment being compiled by others. As a result Erasmus was forced to work from a very limited number of manuscripts and in great haste. He, and others, would later revise his work many times over the next century. When the translators of the KJV began their work on the NT it was from a revision of Erasmus’ Greek NT that they did their work. Later, in 1633, another revision of Erasmus’ work contained these words, “The text that you have is now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or perverted.” From that point on Erasmus’ revised Greek NT has been known as the “received text,” or the “Textus Receptus.” It is important to note that the text was not received in the sense that God put His stamp of approval on it, or that the official church of that day did either. It was received in that it was considered the standard text of that time. It is also of value to realize that the TR is based on a small number of haphazardly collected and relatively late Byzantine manuscripts (it is not based upon the whole Byzantine tradition which consists of thousands of manuscripts). It was compiled by an unsaved Catholic scholar motivated by greed. In about a dozen places its reading is attested by no known Greek manuscript at all. Yet, it was to become the basis for all English and European translations from 1611 to 1881. And the TR is at the foundation of the translation debate today.

Westcott and Hort:

Since 1881 most translations have been based upon the Greek NT text developed by B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort. These, somewhat liberal scholars, argued that the Byzantine text was of late origin and therefore inferior to the Alexandrian tradition. In their work, the scholars used manuscripts that dated back to the second century, some 600 years earlier than anything used by Erasmus. As a basis they used two manuscripts — the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus. These works are believed by many to be the finest and most complete NT manuscripts known to exist. However, they could not have been used by Erasmus for they had not been rediscovered in his day.

While neither tradition is without flaw, most modern translators of the Bible have chosen Westcott and Hort’s work because of its careful scholarship based upon more recent discoveries , its use of much older and more complete manuscripts, and upon the apparent fact that the Byzantine manuscripts did not exist before A.D. 350 and are never quoted by the ante-Nicene fathers. On the other hand the Alexandrian text-types are found in Biblical quotations by the ante-Nicene fathers and in early versions dating back as far as A.D.200.

Honest disagreement still remain concerning which Greek NT is superior. However, among those who love God’s Word there is no conspiracy or attempt to corrupt the Word of God. I believe that all manuscripts can be used and studied, and as was stated earlier, we can have complete confidence in the Bible that is in our hands.

Just a word on the manuscripts behind the OT. When the KJV was translated, the oldest Hebrew manuscripts available were copies made about A.D. 850. Since 1890 many older manuscripts have been discovered, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. Some of our Hebrew manuscripts now date back to 200-300 B.C. Most scholars assume that the older the manuscript the more accurate it is likely to be. If this is true, then modern translations of the OT have a 1000 year advantage over the translators of the KJV. Either way, it is comforting to note, that the Dead Sea Scrolls have given solid proof that the later manuscripts in our possession are accurate and trustworthy.

by Gary E. Gilley

Related Article: Part 2

The Bible Translation Debate – Part 2
(January 1997 – Volume 2, Issue 15)

We now move from the subject of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts to the English translations available today. It must be understood that there is no such thing as a true literal translation. Instead, there is a spectrum, a graduation. Translation is not a pure mechanical process, and is never completely divorced from interpretation. The desired end product is a rendering that means what the original means, but is written in a way that we can understand. The translators of Scripture take three approaches:
Literal translations:

These are attempts to render the original languages as literal as possible, even at the expense of readability sometimes. The best examples are the KJV, The NKJV and the NASB.

Paraphrases:

Paraphrases represent the opposite approach, sacrificing accuracy for readability. Works such as the Living Bible, Phillips, and The Message, are all highly readable but represent more the interpretation of the author than a translation of the text. These may have value as a comparison but are of little use as a legitimate translation.

Free translation:

Works such as the NIV attempt to blend the best of accuracy and faithfulness to the text, with readability that gives clear and easy understanding. This necessitates a great deal more interpretation on the translators part than a strictly literal translation. For example, in Rom 8:3-9 the NASB consistently translates “sarkos” as “flesh,” which is the literal translation of the word. The NIV, on the other hand, in its attempt to help us understand what “sarkos” means, translates it in a number of ways: “sinful nature,” “man,” “sinful man,” and “sinful.” While the NIV’s translation may be more easily understood and more similar to the way we talk today, the question is, “Is it accurate?”

A study of the above passage shows that it actually causes more confusion. The NIV’s translation boils down to an interpretation with which many Bible students would disagree. On the other hand, how many modern readers understand what it means to be “in the flesh?” And how many would study to find out? These are the dilemmas that the translator faces. It might be added that both the KJV and the NKJV translates “sarkos” two different ways in this passage: as “flesh” and as “carnal.” So, in this passage anyway, the NASB is the most consistent and literal of the three translations.

The literal translations, such as the KJV, NKJV and the NASB, are superior especially for the purpose of serious study because of their accuracy. While they may be more difficult to read in places, the believer who truly desires to understand truth will get beyond this problem, without having to deal with the confusion that the freer translations invite. On the other hand, one might recommend one of the free translations, such as the NIV, for new Christians, children, or for general reading.

THE HISTORY OF ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS

A brief history of our English translations might be of interest at this point. It should be noted that godly leaders have always attempted to put the Bible in the language of the people in order that they might “Grow in respect to salvation” (I Pet 2:2). The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic and was translated into a Greek version, the Septuagint, approximately 200 years before Jesus walked the earth. The Vulgate was a Latin translation of the whole Bible, by the scholar Jerome in A.D. 405. This version of the Bible was known as the Vulgate because it was in the vulgar, or common language of the people.

It was not until 1380 that the first English translation was produced, by John Wycliffe. The English government opposed this work, eventually even passing a law against any English translations. Those who resisted found themselves persecuted. Wycliffe was so hated that his remains were exhumed and burned in 1428.

It would be almost 150 years before another translation of the English Bible was published, this time by William Tyndale. Again the English government and clergy opposed this work, and King Henry VIII issued a proclamation in 1530 that the translation, and circulation, of the Scriptures in the common language of the people be forbidden. Tyndale’s famous response was, “I defy the Pope and all of his laws; if God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plow shall know more of the Scriptures than thou dost.” Tyndale was able to follow through on this threat, but ultimately died a martyr for his efforts.

Persecution was unable to stop the translation of Scripture into the English language. In 1535 the Coverdale Bible was published, followed by the Matthews in 1537 and the Great Bible in 1539. The next important translation was the Geneva Bible (1560), which was translated by Christian refugees who fled Britain during the reign of Queen Mary. Since the translation was produced in Geneva, Switzerland it became known as the Geneva Bible. But the real significance of this work was that it contained marginal notes, of both a doctrinal and practical nature, which became very controversial due to their Reformed theology, and their apparent disdain of kings. It was the Geneva Bible which the Puritans studied and brought to America on the Mayflower. The Pilgrims hated the King James Version and would not even allow it in the colonies for years. The Geneva Bible would be the preeminent English translation for seventy-five years. As a side note, it was also known as the “Breeches Bible” because of its reading of Genesis 3:7, “And they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves breeches.” Two other popular translations of the day were the Bishop Bible (1568), which was the work of Archbishop Parker and sanctioned by Queen Elizabeth, and the Douay Bible of 1582 which was a Roman Catholic translation.

It was between 1607 and 1611 that the greatest of all English translations of the Bible — the King James Version — took place. Forty-seven scholars, working in several teams, produced the greatest piece of translation that the world had ever seen. Its accuracy and beauty has endeared the KJV to millions for almost four hundred years. King James I of England had sanctioned a new translation (although it never was given an official civil or ecclesiastical authorization despite the handle, “Authorized Version”). King James was apparently not a believer, lived a very ungodly life and hated the Puritans. However, because of the popularity of the Geneva Bible with its anti-king sentiment, he felt threatened. He called for a new translation; he did away with all marginal notes; and he used some Puritans as translators to insure its acceptability. Although the KJV would undergo numerous revisions over the years (the modern KJV is very different from the original) there would not even be a major attempt at a new translation until the 1881 Revised Version and its American cousin, The American Standard Version of 1901.

These two translations, and almost all that have followed them, are based on the Westcott and Hort Greek NT rather than The Textus Receptus. This fact has set up the debate that still lingers among many, concerning which translation is more accurate (see The Bible Translations Debate Part I).

Some King James-only advocates, refer to the NASB and NIV (and sometimes even the NKJV) as corrupt translations. They usually attempt to point to the differences between the translations that they believe are attempts to subvert the true meaning of the Word of God. For example, they claim that the NASB and the NIV do not use the word “blood” as often as the KJV, which is supposed to prove that the NASB and NIV are soft on the issue of atonement.

Besides being pure nonsense, the fact is that all translations could be challenged by such criteria. For example, even David Hunt, a supporter of the KJV, admits that when it comes to declaring the deity of Christ, the modern versions excel. He says, “There are eight verses in the New Testament that clearly declare that Jesus is God: Jh. 1:1; Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; II Thes. 1:12; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; II Pet. 1:1; and Rev. 1:8. The KJV is clear in four of these (Jh. 1:1; Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; and Heb. 1:8), whereas the NASB and NIV are clear in seven of the eight (the same four plus Titus 2:13; II Pet. 1:1; and Rev. 1:8). . . If the situation was the other way around. . . Some KJV-only advocates would surely accuse the modern versions of down playing Christ’s deity” (Berean Call, Jan, 1995).

I personally believe that the Bible translations debate is blown way out of proportion by some. Rather than fighting over which translation is superior, we might do well to spend more time reading one of the great translations, especially the NASB, the KJV, the NKJV and perhaps the NIV. For further reading on this issue I would recommend:
The Men Behind the King James Version, by Gustavus S. Paine.

The King James Version Debate, a Plea for Realism, by D. A. Carson.

What You Should Know About Bible Translations, by G. Christian Weiss.

by Gary E. Gilley
©2009 SVC

Posted in Alan Roxburgh, Allelon, Brian McLaren, Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf, Leonard Sweet, New spirituality, Rick Warren, Rob Bell | Tagged: | Leave a Comment »

Use and Misuse of Scripture

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 9, 2009

This article was written by Pastor Gary Gilley who will be one of the featured speakers on the DVD we will be releasing in the spring.
Enjoy the article-Tim

Use and Misuse of Scripture

The truly blessed individual is described in Psalm 1: His delight is in the Law of the Lord, and in His Law he meditates day and night. Godly people delight in the Word of God. They love it; they cherish it; they can’t get enough of it. That is why they meditate on it day and night. It is their joy to contemplate God’s truth. Such lovers of truth take seriously Paul’s injunction to be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth (II Timothy 2:15). Those who desire God’s approval must handle accurately, or literally, “cut straight,” the word of truth. They diligently study the Bible in order to interpret it correctly and then apply it properly. Anything less results in workers who are ashamed – not because they do not mean well, or do not love the Lord, but because they have mishandled the Scriptures and thus, at least to some degree live false lives, leading possibly even to the dishonoring of God. No child of God wants to dishonor their Lord and so the careful study of the Word is serious business. We do not have the option of carelessness or superficiality, much less distortion of the biblical text. So it is the precious privilege of the child of God to, year by year, grow in his understanding of Scripture. Never perfectly, but always earnestly, the believer craves to increasingly know God’s truth more fully. For in doing so we honor Him and live life abundantly (John 10:10).

Of course, those who so love the glorious truths of the Word will also contend earnestly for the faith (the body of truth found in the Word) which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). All of us will fight for the things we treasure. If we treasure our marriage, we will stand against all obstacles that would destroy that marriage. If we value our children, we will protect and guard them from all that would harm them. If we adore the Word of God, how can we do anything less than fight for it against all adversaries? It has always been beyond my comprehension as to how a believer can claim to love God’s Word and yet tolerate teachers who pervert it.

This brings us to the topic of our paper. Satan, of course, has always sought to twist and misrepresent the Scriptures. Over the years he has invented many ways of doing so, but recently he has used several seemingly benign methods that I believe are going undetected by many evangelical Christians. Please consider with me three areas that need careful evaluation.

Hermeneutics

Hermeneutics is the science that teaches the principles, laws and methods of interpretation. Whenever we attempt to interpret anything, be it the IRS code, the sports page, a novel or the Bible we use certain hermeneutical methods. When we seek to understand almost any literature, besides the Bible, we all tend to use normal, literal hermeneutics. Loosely this means that we take words and sentences at face value, expecting that the author meant what he said and we can understand what he meant. Theologians call this the grammatical-historical approach. But when it comes to the Bible, Christians throughout history have had a hard time using normal hermeneutics. Instead they have tried to infuse into the Word meanings that were never intended. For a fuller understanding of some of the errant approaches of the past, see my book, “I Just Wanted More Land,” Jabez, or Bernard Ramm’s Protestant Biblical Interpretation. I am more interested at this point in some of the newer approaches that are rapidly becoming popular among the evangelical elite. Some of the new hermeneutics seem to spring from postmodern and deconstruction thought (see TOTT papers on postmodernism). But whether or not this is the case, there is a movement away from the objective grammatical-historical method to a more subjective slant in which the reader’s understanding of the text takes precedence over the original intent of the author (in the case of the Bible, the Holy Spirit). On a popular level this is evident in the many Bible studies in which believers are encouraged to share what a certain passage of Scripture “means to me.” Often no one has actually done any careful study of the text, nor is anyone’s interpretation considered wrong or challenged. The implication is that whatever the text means to you is a proper interpretation, even if it is far from what the author intended it to mean. On the scholarly front the rage is to backpedal from the grammatical-historical approach and develop methods that emphasize the subjective element (i.e., what it means to me). Some scholars effectively neutralize the meaning of the text by bringing a preunderstanding to it. Rather than allowing the text to speak for itself, a preconceived foreign meaning is brought to the passage with the result that the true meaning is lost or distorted. For example, open theists bring to the text of Scripture a preconceived understanding that God cannot know the future with certainty. They then reinterpret any passage which speaks of God’s foreknowledge through the grid of their presuppositions. Others, even in conservative camps, are advocating that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings. This is a repudiation of one of the cardinal rules of grammatical-historical hermeneutics, that of one meaning in any given text. This is a vast and concerning subject, far beyond the scope of this paper. I would refer you to Robert Thomas’ excellent book, Evangelical Hermeneutics for more on this matter. The bottom line is that if we desert normal methods of interpretation, if we do not allow the text to speak for itself, if we insist on bringing our own meanings to the passage, we will not be accurately handling the Word of God.

Translations

Flowing directly from the stream of modern hermeneutics are modern translations. I have explored some of the issues surrounding translations, including the King James controversies and the manuscripts debate, in previous TOTT papers, so I will not replow that ground. At this point I am more interested in the philosophy behind the numerous translations of Scripture available today. Most translations in the past have been attempts to render into another language (my comments will be limited to English) as closely as possible the Hebrew and Greek words in which the Bible was originally written. While no translation has ever been infallible (only the original autographs are), and while all translations involve a certain amount of interpretation – since it is impossible to literally render word for word Hebrew and Greek into English – most translations attempted to stay as close as possible to the biblical languages. The King James Version is a case in point. The translators endeavored to produce a translation of Scripture that was as literal as possible and still be readable. That they did a remarkable job can be attested by the longevity of the KJV, first published in 1611 and still being read today (with some modifications) by millions. Other works such as the American Standard Version (ASV), The New American Standard Bible (NASB), the New King James (NKJV) and now the English Standard Version (ESV), have all had this same philosophy and all, I believe, are excellent attempts at translations.

But hand in glove with the rise of subjective hermeneutics has been the popularity of translations that do not attempt a word-for-word, literal translation, but a thought for thought rendering. These freer translations aim at dynamic equivalence: producing the same effect on today’s reader that the original text produced on the original reader. In such versions far more interpretation on the part of the translators go into the work as they attempt to explain what the authors meant rather than rendering what they said and allowing the reader to interpret the words for themselves. To some degree this is true of any translation, but the freer the translation the more interpretation is taking place by the translators. Easily the best known translation in this field is the New International Version, which has become the best selling English Bible of our times. Recently the Today’s New International Version has been published. It attempts a gender-neutral translation – replacing masculine pronouns and sometimes nouns in an effort to make the Bible less offensive to certain segments of society. Also popular is the New Living Translation.

Then there are the paraphrases such as The Living Bible and more recently, The Message, which make no attempt to translate words at all but amount to running commentaries on the Bible. Understood as mere commentaries, paraphrases may have their place. Unfortunately, as we will see, many misconstrue them to be translations leading to a plethora of problems.

The bottom line is that the further a translation moves from the literal, the more interpretation is taking place, and the less accurate to the original text are the words found in the translation. Let me give you a typical example. Observe the translation of the Greek word sarx in a number of translations. It is important to note that sarx literally means “flesh” and can refer to physical flesh or something spiritual, depending on the context. Compare five versions’ rendering of sarx in Romans 8:9a.

KJV: “But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you.”

NASB: “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.”

NIV: “You, however, are controlled not by your sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.”

LB: “But you are not like that. You are controlled by your new nature if you have the Spirit of God living in you.”

Message: “But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourselves than of him.”

Note that the first two translations – both literal in philosophy – translate the word sarx as “flesh,” leaving the interpretation of the word up to the reader. Also, the literal rendering of the sentence produces the sense that if the Holy Spirit dwells in an individual, then they are not in the flesh. In other words, a person cannot be a believer and still be in the flesh. The Christian’s position in Christ is that they are no longer in the flesh. But the NIV translates sarx as “controlled not by your sinful nature.” Not only is one Greek word translated by a phrase, but that phrase changes the meaning of the text. The NIV interpretation would lead us to believe that the issue is one of control, not one of position. It is not, according to the NIV, that we have been set free from the flesh (i.e., we are no longer in the flesh) but that we are not controlled by our sinful nature. A massive amount of interpretation has taken place, and the interpretation actually changes the meaning of the verse from Paul’s intent. The Living Bible rendering goes further, completely removing any idea of the flesh at all. Now we are controlled by our new nature – a concept foreign to the passage. What The Message is doing is anyone’s guess, and quite typical of this paraphrase. The Message’s message is a complete distortion of the text. It is amazing the accolades that this paraphrase has received in the Christian community when it consistently changes the meaning of the Scriptures.

The point is this – the further a translation moves from the philosophy of literalness the less the work is a translation and the more it is an interpretation, and the more untrustworthy it becomes. Dynamic-equivalent versions are usually easier to read and therefore may be helpful to the young Christian and children. They also may prove useful as reference tools and general reading, but for serious Bible study a literal translation is indispensable.

The following chart by Robert Thomas will help us in our selection of translations.[1] It measures the relative deviations of translations from the original Hebrew and Greek texts, i. e., how close are the translations to the original. For Bible study I believe that only the literal translations should be used.

translations

The Church of the Closed Bible

This is the most subtle and insidious of the three areas of concern, and will be the topic of our next paper.

[1] Robert L. Thomas, How to Choose A Bible Version (Great Britain,: Christian Focus Publications, 2000), p. 96

by Gary E. Gilley
©2009 SVC

Posted in Alan Roxburgh, Allelon, Brian McLaren, Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf, Leonard Sweet, New spirituality, Rob Bell | Leave a Comment »

New links

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 5, 2009

I have just added a bunch of new links be sure to check them out.
The Inerrancy of Gods Word conference was a real blessing.
Jacob Prasch was very good and I enjoyed the hang time I got with Jacob who came up singing “This Diamond Ring” by Gary Lewis and the Playboys to me.
(fyi I played with Gary in the late 70’s early 80’s)
Jacob was funny but yet a skilled teacher speaking on the Bible and false interpretations, as well as Heresy and Biblical authority.
Jacob also spoke on the errors of Calvinism and how John Calvin studied the Bible. Jacob also touched on humanism.
Very powerful speaker.
Everyone else did a great job as well.
And it was always good to play some music with Buck Storm.
Peace
Tim

Posted in Alan Roxburgh, Allelon, Brian McLaren, Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf, Leonard Sweet, New spirituality, Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Uncategorized | Leave a Comment »

Warren Smith on “The Shack”

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 4, 2009

From my friend and brother in the Lord Warren Smith.

THE SHACK & Its New Age Leaven
God IN Everything?

By Warren Smith

“A little leaven leaventh the whole lump.”
- Galatians 5:9

The Shack is being described as a “Christian” novel and is currently ranked number one on the New York Times bestseller list for paperback fiction. Many believers are buying multiple copies and giving them to friends and family. The Shack reads as a true story, but is obviously allegorical fiction. The book conveys postmodern spiritual ideas and teachings that challenge biblical Christianity – all in the name of “God” and “Jesus” and the “Holy Spirit.” Author William P. Young’s alternative presentation of traditional Christianity has both inspired and outraged his many readers. All the while his book continues to fly off the shelves of local bookstores.

Much like New Age author James Redfield’s book The Celestine Prophecy, The Shack is a fictional vehicle for upending certain religious concepts and presenting contrary spiritual scenarios. Allegorical novels can be a clever way to present truth. They can also be used to present things that seem to be true but really are not. Some books like The Shack do both.

I was drawn into the New Age Movement years ago by books and lectures containing parabolic stories that were not unlike The Shack. They felt spiritually uplifting as they tackled tough issues and talked about God’s love and forgiveness. They seemed to provide me with what I spiritually needed as they gave me much needed hope and promise. Building on the credibility they achieved through their inspirational and emotive writings, my New Age authors and teachers would then go on to tell me that “God” was “in” everyone and everything.

I discovered that author William P. Young does exactly the same thing in The Shack. He moves through his very engaging and emotional story to eventually present this same New Age teaching that God is “in” everything.

But I am getting ahead of myself. Let me first provide some background material concerning this key New Age doctrine that “God is in everything.” A good place to start is with Eugene Peterson, the author of the controversial Bible paraphrase The Message. After all, Peterson’s enthusiastic endorsement of The Shack is featured right under the author’s name on the front cover.

Ironically, it was Peterson’s endorsement that caused me to be immediately suspicious of this high-profile, bestselling “Christian” book. Through his questionable paraphrasing of the Bible, Peterson had already aligned himself in a number of areas with New Age/New Spirituality teachings. One obvious example was where he translated a key verse in the Lord’s Prayer to read “as above, so below” rather than “in earth, as it is in heaven.” “As above, so below” was a term that I was very familiar with from my previous involvement in the New Age Movement. This esoteric saying has been an occult centerpiece for nearly five thousand years. It is alleged by New Age metaphysicians to be the key to all magic and all mysteries. It means that God is not only transcendent — “out there”— but He is also immanent — “in” everyone and everything.

But, as I found out just before abandoning the deceptive teachings of the New Age for the Truth of biblical Christianity, God is not “in” everyone and everything. The Bible makes it clear that man is not divine and that man is not God (Ezekiel 28:2, Hosea 11:9, John 2:24-25, etc.) In Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose-Driven Church, I quoted the editors of the New Age Journal as they defined “as above, so below” in their book, As Above, So Below:

“’As above, so below, as below, so above.’ This maxim implies that the transcendent God beyond the physical universe and the immanent God within ourselves are one.” (p. 32)

My concern about Peterson’s undiscerning use of “as above, so below” in the Lord’s Prayer was underscored when the 2006 bestseller, The Secret, showcased this same occult/New Age phrase. In fact, it was the introductory quote at the very beginning of the book. By immediately featuring “as above, so below” the author Rhonda Byrne was telling her readers in definite New Age language that “God is in everyone and everything.” Towards the end of the book, The Secret puts into more practical words what the author initially meant by introducing the immanent concept of “as above, so below.” On page 164 The Secret tells its readers—“You are God in a physical body.”

Most significantly, in his book The Reappearance of the Christ and the Masters of Wisdom, New Age leader Benjamin Crème reveals that a New World Religion will be based on this foundational “as above, so below” teaching of immanence — this idea that God is “in” everyone and everything:

“But eventually a new world religion will be inaugurated which will be a fusion and synthesis of the approach of the East and the approach of the West. The Christ will bring together, not simply Christianity and Buddhism, but the concept of God transcendent — outside of His creation — and also the concept of God immanent in all creation — in man and all creation.” (p. 88)

New Age matriarch Alice Bailey, in her book The Reappearance of the Christ, wrote:

“…a fresh orientation to divinity and to the acceptance of the fact of God Transcendent and God Immanent within every form of life. “These are foundational truths upon which the world religion of the future will rest.” (p. 88) [link added]

In a November 9, 2003 Hour of Power sermon – just two months before he was a featured speaker at the annual meeting of the National Association of Evangelicals – Crystal Cathedral minister Robert Schuller unabashedly aligned himself with this same New Age/New World Religion teaching. The man who claims to have mentored thousands of pastors, including Bill Hybels and Rick Warren, stated:

“You know in theology — pardon me for using a couple of big words — but in theology the God we believe in, this God of Abraham, is a transcendent God. But He is also an immanent God. Transcendent means up there, out there, above us all. But God is also an immanent God — immanence of God and the transcendence of God — but then you have a balanced perspective of God. The immanence of God means here, in me, around me, in society, in the world, this God here, in the humanities, in the science, in the arts, sociology, in politics — the immanence of God…. Yes, God is alive and He is in every single human being!”

But God is not in every single human being. God is not in everything. One of the many reasons I wrote Deceived on Purpose was because Rick Warren presented his readers with this same “God in everything” teaching. Quoting an obviously flawed New Century Bible translation of Ephesians 4:6, Rick Warren — whether he meant to or not — was teaching his millions of readers the foundational doctrine of the New World Religion. Describing God in his book, The Purpose-Driven Life, he wrote:

“He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything.” (p. 88)

Compounding the matter further, “immanence” has been taught as part of the Foundations class at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church. An ill-defined reference to immanence on page 46 of the Saddleback Foundations Participants Guide plays right into the hands of the New Spirituality/New World Religion by stating:

“The fact that God stands above and beyond his creation does not mean he stands outside his creation. He is both transcendent (above and beyond his creation) and immanent (within and throughout his creation).”

All of this discussion about “God in everything” immanence is to explain why The Shack is such a deceptive book. It teaches this same heresy. This book ostensibly attempts to deal with the deeply sensitive issues surrounding the murder of a young child. Because of the author’s intensely personal story line, most readers become engaged with the book on a deep emotional level. However, the author’s use of poetic license to convey his highly subjective, and often unbiblical, spiritual views becomes increasingly problematic as the story line develops. This is most apparent when he uses the person of “Jesus” to suddenly introduce the foundational teaching of the New Spirituality/New World Religion — God is “in” everything. Using the New Age term “ground of being” to describe “God,” the “Jesus” of The Shack states:

“God, who is the ground of all being, dwells in, around, and through all things….” (p. 112)

This false teaching about a “God” who “dwells in, around, and through all things” is the kind of New Age leaven that left unchallenged could leaven the church into the New Age/New Spirituality of the proposed New World Religion. And while many people have expressed a great deal of emotional attachment to The Shack and its characters — this leaven alone contaminates the whole book.

Clearly, the “Jesus” of The Shack is not Jesus Christ of the Bible. The apostle Paul chided the Corinthians and warned them that they were vulnerable and extremely susceptible to “another Jesus” and “another gospel” and “another spirit” that were not from God (2 Corinthians 11:4). In the Bible, the real Jesus Christ warned that spiritual deception would be a sign before His return. He further warned that there would be those who would even come in His name, pretending to be Him (Matthew 24:3-5;24).

Without ascribing any ill motive to William Young and his book The Shack, the author’s use of spiritual creativity seems to give a “Christian” assent to the New Age/New Spirituality of the proposed New World Religion. His mixing of truth and error can become very confusing to readers, and God is not the author of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33).

Dr. Harry Ironside, pastor of Chicago’s Moody Memorial Church from 1930-1948, emphasizes the fact that truth mixed with error results in “all error” — a direct refutation of the Emergent Church teaching to find “truth” wherever it may be found — including books like The Shack. Ironside wrote:

“Error is like leaven, of which we read, ‘A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.’ Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.” (quoted in The Berean Call, April 2008)

The Shack has touched the hearts and emotions of many people. While there are many other examples of the author’s unbiblical liberality, introducing the heretical New Age teaching that “God dwells in, and around, and through all things” is in and by itself enough to completely undermine any value the book might otherwise have for faithful believers. To allow yourself to get carried away by this story, while disregarding the book’s New Age/New Spirituality leaven, is to fall prey to the “truth-and-error” mixture that pervades The Shack. And as Dr. Ironside warned—“God hates such a mixture.”

Before Christians buy one more copy of this book, they need to come to terms with what this author is ultimately teaching and what it is they are passing along to their friends and fellow believers.

The Truth:

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (1 Timothy 4:4)

Warren Smith is the author of numerous articles and books on the topic of the New Age/New Spirituality and how it is entering the evangelical church.

Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose-Driven Church
The Light that was Dark: From the New Age to Amazing Grace
Reinventing Jesus Christ: The New Gospel

Posted in Alan Roxburgh, Allelon, Brian McLaren, Emergent Church, Emergent church within the Nazarene denomination, Greg Horton, Jon Middendorf, Leonard Sweet, New spirituality, Rick Warren, Rob Bell | Tagged: , | Leave a Comment »

FYI

Posted by nazarenepsalm113 on February 3, 2009

Hi to all: I am wrapping up being at a conference in Tempe,AZ with a lot of friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord. Spent some great time with my friend and brother Buck Storm worshipping the Lord and playing some wonderful music. Always good to play music with Buck.
Also spent a lot of time with our good friends Don and Sue Butler. Iron sharpens Iron.
Plus it was great to meet Jacob Prasch, David Hocking, Bill Koening, Dr Rick Oliver, Randall Price as well as spending some time with my friend and brother in the Lord Warren Smith.
Warren did a great job on exposing the book “The Shack”. More to come on that as well as topics the others addressed.
Pastor John Higgins was a wonderful host as well.
More to come on all this and lots of information coming this week once I get back and have had some time to rest.

I will also be shutting off all comment’s on all my blogs and website’s.
It is a free country and people can respond to what I write and post on their own blogs.
To many times debate just turns into a schoolyard fight with people just gathering to watch the fight.
People in both camps.
I will lose hits because when you have guys like Richie Abanes, Greg Horton, or even Michael Newnham at Phoenix Preacher people will gather for the fight.
It all just crumbles down to petty bickering, and foolish talk .
None of which builds up the Body of Christ.
I will speak more on this later in the week
There is a lot more unity than you would think.
At the conference I saw people who didnt agree 100% with each other come together with a common purpose.
I was also very encouraged to see the huge amount of young people at the conference who were hungry for truth and acurate information in this great time of deception.
I have asked some people mostly in the Nazarene denomination to reply publically they can still do that from their own blog, websites and or pulpits.
Again more on all this later.
We will also be expanding our links page make sure you check that out.
I can still be contacted by email for any concerns
More to come next week.
Peace and Blessings
Tim Wirth

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