Finding a good church and pastoral support

Face it folks it is getting harder and harder to find a good bible believing church out there these day’s.
Many of us have left churches broken hearted when that church reduces into accepting false teaching.
Many of us have went through this pain.
Here are some suggestions (note the word suggestions) on how perhaps to find a good church.
This is what I have done and it works for me.
This also does not guarantee that the church will stay with Gods Word and keep to the faith.
Its just a good starting point for me.
First go to a couple service’s and listen to the preaching done then go read Eph 4:12-15.
To me it must fit this criteria.
Side note- you always here there is no perfect church and if your in it it is not perfect as well.
Well there may not be a perfect church but there must and could be a faithful church.
A church that is true to Gods Word which is perfect.
Now if the preaching is good and meets the above criteria of scripture it is good to meet with the pastor before you start going there to see what the pastors direction and vision is for the church.
Does that vision and direction line up with Gods Word?
I will also always like to meet the pastor in his office because I want to see what he is reading.
Now lets take that in perspective.
The books he has in his library may be for research purposes only.
So if I see the false teaching of Rob Bell’s “Velvet Elvis” up in his bookcase I do not start to panic but will ask him what he thinks of the book?
Someone may have just given him the book or he may have not heard anything on Rob Bell and wanted to check it out for himself.
I have always offered to give a pastor more information on false teachers.
Most pastors that are on their knees before God to appeal to the Holy Spirit on what to preach that Sunday seldom have a lot of time to do any sort of research and spend a lot of time on the internet.
That’s what watchmen are for.
What makes me want to vomit is when I see this new wave of pastors (Emergent or otherwise) who you see all over the internet with numerous blogs and comments all over the place.
Thats why some of them can only come up with 23 minute sermons its because they spend their days surfing the net trying to make a name for themselves.
The mere time they spend on the internet show they don’t have anytime to study Gods Word and preach effectively.
And also explains why they are deceived and choose to follow false teachers like Brian McLaren and Rob Bell.
Again a great lack of time in Gods Word which is our only truth.
Ok so much for the rant back on point-
I would ask the pastor very specific questions about Rick Warren, Hybels seeker-sensitive and the Emergent church.
This is a litmus test for me because I do not want to go into a church where false teaching is being promoted.
There are churches out there that still honor Gods Word but they are getting harder to find.
Why?
2 Thess 2:3 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
We are witnessing this taking place world wide as I write this.
Now if the pastor is open to your objections to the Emergent Church etc.. I would say voice them and then judge upon the feedback you get.
The pastor may well be uninformed about the dangers and perhaps you were sent there to warn him.
Me personally before going forward will always let the pastor know what I do and turn him toward my website.
Always -I don’t want any surprises.
Some people have wanted me in the church because of my musical talent.
I will always turn them toward my website first to see if THEY still want me going to their church.
If its a good fit (so to speak) go forward.
When warning a pastor of deception make sure you put across your concern for the Body of Christ at large.
Because know it or not all saved Christians are part of the same Body.
My own pastor Steve Spoon supported me from the get go.
We soon had Ray Yungen in our church speaking.
When I expressed my concerns about what Jon and Jesse Middendorf were promoting Pastor Steve’s words were “You know Tim you need to expose this”.
Pastor Steve has also supported the DVD in both the main church and the church branch and has allowed us to pass this out for free.
Of course this was allowed only after Pastor Steve reviewed the DVD.
For this Pastor Steve has been a object of ridicule and threats by our opposition (on the other blog).
He stated about reading Bob Hunters and Charles Christians email’s to him as pure poison.
So let me tell you if you have a pastor brave enough to stand with you this day you need to keep that guy in your daily prayers.
Plus Pastor Steve was the one who introduced me to Bev Turner and let me know it was key to get the Nazarene evangelists on board with us.
Which we have.
Some even passing out our DVD’s.
So there is my two cents.
Be encouraged even though its really bad out there and the Emergent heresy has deceived many read the end of the Book.
Jesus and His Word win in the end.
And that you can rest assured of.

And as Pastor Steve always says “Onward and Upward”.
Sincerely in Christ
Your friend and brother in the Lord
Tim Wirth

In the trenches with Manny and friends.

To start this off lets here from someone wiser than me-John MacArthur and his very wise words.
“So what is truth? Here is a simple definition drawn from what the Bible teaches: truth is that which is consistent with the mind,will,character,glory, and being of God. Because the definition of truth flows from God, truth is theological. Truth is also ontological-which is a fancy way of saying that it is the way things really are. Reality is what it is because God declared it so and made it so. Therefore God is the author ,source,determiner,governer,arbitor,utimate standard, and final judge of all truth. The Old Testament refers to the Almighty as the “God of truth” (Deut 32:4;Psalm 31:5;Isaiah 65:16). When Jesus said of Himself,”I am…the truth John 14:6), He was thereby making a profound claim about His own deity. He was also making it clear that all truth must ultimately be defined in terms of God and His eternal glory.
Jesus also said that the written Word of God is truth. It is not merely nuggets of truth; it is pure,unchangable, and inviolable truth that (according to Jesus) “cannot be broken” (John 10:35). Praying to His heavenly Father of behalf of His disciples, He said this “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth”( John 17:17). Morever, the Word of God is eternal truth “which lives and abides forever” (Peter 1:23).
Of course there cannot be any discord or difference of opinion between the written Word of God (Scripture) and the incarnate Word of God (Jesus). In the first place, truth by definition cannot contradict itself. Second, Scripture is called “the word of Christ”"Colossians 3:16). It is His message., His self-expression. In other words, the truth of Christ and the truth of the Bible are of the very same character. They are in perfect agreement in every respect. Both are equally true. God has revealed Himself to humanity through scripture and through His Son. Both perfectly embody the essence of what truth is. end quote
(Excert from “The Truth War” by John MacArthur)
Two opposing views are never both true one has to be false.
There are false teachers and people who teach what is good and true.
The Bible throughout teaches about false teachers and false prophets the book of Jude is a good book to study about what the Bible teaches about false teachers.
What does all this have to do with me and Manny and our friends fighting in the trenches for the truth of Gods Word?
Well to set this up let me tell you why we fight.
We do not fight to try to convince the opposing side they are wrong and convince them we are right.
We always allow Gods Word to determine that.
A good reason to sometimes fight in the trenches is to expose falsehood the opposition teaches in front of  all those who have gathered around to observe the fight.
Face it many websites such as Naz Net and other facebook pages even the Church of the Nazarene facebook page are being used by the enemy as points of diaprax.
As Dean Gotcher points out, the success of diaprax depends on collaborative agreements of unity based on false standards. Diaprax by nature would reject the absolutes of the scriptures. We are seeing a lot of that in today’s church.
We see that going on all over the net.
Unity while forsaking the truth.

Again there can never be two opposing views that are both true.

One has to be true and one has to be false.

Both Manny and myself were declared by those who oppose us to not be false teachers.

here are their own words-

(Both these guys support the Emergent Church )

Bob Hunter stated”I want to stress that I do not believe Manny & Tim are false teachers”

Paul de Baufer stated” I agree that Manny and Tim are NOT heretics, nor are they false teachers.”

Therefore by our oppositions own statements what Manny and I are teaching is true and should be listened to.

And if you want to see what we are teaching of course go to our website as well as Concerned Nazarenes website.

Now with both Manny and myself we have always stated that you should be good Bereans and check everything we say against what scripture teaches. And if it doesn’t add up reject it totally. I have made this statement dozens of times as well about all my writing and articles as well as the DVD I helped produce.

I know myself , Manny and our friends will always point you toward Gods Word for truth and to check out to see if what we say is true.

The opposition has another view though to take you away from Gods Word.

Try this statement on for size.

This was from Bob Hunter and my reply was a follow up comment.

Bob Hunter wrote23 minutes ago

To all,

This constant goaded by the CNs to support everything with scripture is nothing but an invitation to engage in a combative theological debate using scripture out of context. Do take the bait. One only has to look the SBC to see how that is working out for them. When the Bible is used to prove who is right and wrong it becomes a device and not a source of formation in the lives of people it seeks to shape. 

Actually, it could be well stated and already has that perhaps many of us have a very high view of scripture in that we seek to use it for its intended purpose and not as a billy club. Bible wars? No thanks! Say NO to the CN invitation to fight each other with scripture. Horrible! unChristlike, unNazarene… (PS I feel Bob has a very low view of scripture since he seldom uses it-Tim)

Here was my follow-up comment

Tim-

We are not saying fight each other with scripture.
We are saying compare whats being taught,stated and shown on the DVD with Gods word.Acts 17: 10-12
“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable woman which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.”
Folks who are you really going to believe people who point you toward the scriptures to see if what is being said is true.
Or troubled, disturbed individuals who point you away from Gods Word.
You decide.
Sincerely in Christ
Tim

I believe that Bob fears that people will find out that what Gods Words states does indeed agree with what we are teaching.

That in itself in bizarre since Bob has already stated he did not believe we are false teachers.

Why not let people decide for themselves .

Ask yourselves what is the big fear here among Emergent’s and their supporters of the  false doctrine they endorse and teach?

Our comments have now been removed from the Church of the Nazarene facebook page as well as Mannys posts.

Is the truth being suppressed here?

You decide.

There is a big fear out there among Emergent’s and the heresy they expose folks to.

And our movement continues to grow.

here is a email I received today-

Tim,

I trust that this email makes it way to you in that I pulled it from your Concerned Nazarenes web page.

First, let me say that the reason I am writing to you is to affirm you and your fellow Nazarenes who have boldly expressed your concerns regarding the emergent church movement and its present influence within the Wesleyan/Nazarene/Free Methodist family of churches and colleges.  In my judgment you are correct in your analysis and I can only hope your college leaders will listen to you.

Second, I wanted to let you know that I share you passion for confronting the errors of the emergent church and its affection for post-modern epistemology and ontology.  I personally have been speaking out and confronting my Wesleyan counterparts on these very same things.  In fact Oklahoma Wesleyan University has become known in the Wesleyan Church for its conservative stance on these matters and for our unapologetic commitment to the inerrancy of the Scriptures.

I just want you to know that I am here to partner with you, support you, and serve you should you find it helpful.

If you want to know more about what we are doing at Oklahoma Wesleyan University go to www.okwu.edu.

Blessings,

Everett Piper

President

Oklahoma Wesleyan University

Opposition to the heresy those like Brian Mclaren and Rob Bell and their followers teach continues to grow.

Which side of the fence are you on?

Scripture states-

2 Thess 2:3

³ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first

Are you falling away or clinging to the truth we find in Jesus and His Word written and settled in scripture?